The Perspectives Podcast

Unleashing Inner Peace: Exploring Meditation and Consciousness in a Chaotic World | A Conversation with Shai Tubali | The Perspectives Podcast With Dr. Susan Birne-Stone and Marco Ciappelli

Episode Summary

Dive into the world of spirituality, meditation, and consciousness with our special guest, Shai Tubali. Discover how to find stillness and balance in our fast-paced, modern lives.

Episode Notes


Shai Tubali

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Dr. Susan Byrne Stone, Therapist, Coach, Professor, Consultant, Talk Show Producer & Host and Mentor

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Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast

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Episode Introduction

Welcome to another episode of The Perspectives Podcast, hosted by Susan and Marco. Today's episode promises to be an exciting and thought-provoking journey into the world of human consciousness, meditation, and spirituality. Our special guest, Shai Tubali, a researcher of human consciousness and a spiritual practitioner, shares his fascinating story, experiences, and insights on higher states of consciousness and their influence on our lives.

Shai Tubali has studied philosophy, mysticism, and religion, both in ancient Greece and India. He has been a meditation teacher since 1997, and his passion for higher states of consciousness led him to a profound shift in perspective at the age of 23, which he experienced during a silent retreat in Sinai, Egypt. This transformative experience awakened his universal consciousness and left him speechless for an entire year.

As our modern society becomes increasingly interconnected and fast-paced, Susan and Marco explore the growing interest in spirituality and meditation, as well as the challenges and benefits of incorporating these practices into our daily lives. Shai agrees that our modern world is indeed becoming more interested in adopting spiritual practices as a way to find stillness and psychological centering amidst the chaos.

However, he also raises an important point about the potential downside of incorporating spiritual practices into our modern lives. By extracting essences and ideas from their original contexts, we may be diluting their impact and transforming them into something less transformative. For instance, mindfulness of breathing, which used to be a complete path to enlightenment, has now become a simple relaxation technique for many people.

Despite this potential pitfall, Marco argues that even a small amount of meditation practice can improve our lives. Shai's book, which offers 35 classical meditation techniques, stripped of their historical and cultural contexts, is an example of how we can experiment with different practices to find what works best for us. This approach may not lead to complete enlightenment, but it can certainly contribute to our personal growth and well-being.

Join us for this enthralling conversation about the intersection of spirituality, meditation, and modern life. Let's delve into the possibilities of personal transformation and find out how we can all benefit from a little bit of stillness in our chaotic world. Don't forget to think about this conversation, share it with your friends, and subscribe to The Perspectives Podcast for more intriguing discussions!



Book: Llewellyn's Complete Book of Meditation: A Comprehensive Guide to Effective Techniques for Calming Your Mind and Spirit (Llewellyn's Complete Book Series, 17):


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Episode Transcription

Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it ‚Äúas it is‚ÄĚ and we hope it can be useful for our audience.



meditation, life, thinking, practice, mindfulness, people, talking, world, perspective, hear, mind, terms, focused, che, benefits, gap, feel, buddhism, purposes, instance


Marco Ciappelli, Dr. Susan Birne-Stone, Shai Tubali, Show intro


Show intro  00:15

Welcome to the ITSPmagazine Podcast Network. You're listening to a new episode of the perspectives podcast, get ready to explore the complexity of life with Dr. Susan and Marco, as they offer a space for open and honest dialogue, where guests can share unique perspectives on all aspects of life. Join them on this journey to broaden your perspective, deepen your understanding of others, and positively impact society. Knowledge is power. Now, more than ever.


Marco Ciappelli  00:56

All right, all right, Susan, we're here. Once again,


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  01:00

I know I'm so excited, this is going to be great, we have a great guest today. And here we go.


Marco Ciappelli  01:07

It's going to be a conversation, and it's going to be a conversation about a topic that I think is infinite, I'm just gonna start with this is an infinite topic. And a lot of people talk about it, it's been around for a long time, it's we kind of go back to 1500 here, I guess, here and in our job today, in our let's say, idea, and goal is to demonstrate that it's a relevant topic for maybe even more in our modern society. So it's, it's a big task. We'll see if we can do this. And of course, we're not doing this by herself. We could not we could, absolutely. So we do have a guest. His name is Shai to Bali, and he is joining us from somewhere in the world with a beautiful background, very relaxing, very inspiring. And, and what we're talking about is it's meditation, it's focused around his experience as an academic, and also practitioner, and there'll be some good tips on our way, the way we live our life. So yeah, Suzanne is played here,


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  02:25

I'm really excited, because we're gonna be going like really deep inside, you know, we've been talking so many things on these episodes about things on the outside. And now this is we're gonna go really deep on to the inside, which is one of my favorite topics. So I'm excited. And I welcome Shay and Shay. Welcome to perspectives.


Shai Tubali  02:45

Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure being here with you today.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  02:49

And could you tell us a little bit about you, just the overview of your experience. And then, of course, as you know, Marco and I are going to ask you lots of questions. But what you know, we want to maybe give for our listening audience. Tell him a little bit about where you're coming from in terms of your experience and your perspective.


Shai Tubali  03:10

Well, I always like to present myself as a researcher of human consciousness, researcher of the human mind, researcher of human consciousness, human consciousness is what we can refer to as our self reflective consciousness, perhaps we'll use this term in our discussion. And what this entails, because this entails suffering, as well as a happiness or liberation. So I research these both objectively, as far as, as it is possible as an academic philosopher, because I've studied a philosophy of mysticism, philosophy of religion, both in ancient Greece and in ancient India, and subjectively, as a spiritual practitioner, and a sort of world meditation teacher since 1997. Yes, so So my great passion is, is higher states of consciousness and what how we can use them to influence our life. That's, that's the passion in one sentence.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  04:27

That is great. And I'm curious about and I'm sure our listeners or how did you get involved in this, as well as I know a little bit that you describe yourself as having really had a shift in perspective. And given that this show is called perspectives, I think a perfect question to ask, When did you have that shift? And how did that come about? Can you tell us about that?


Shai Tubali  04:50

Yes, of course. Well, the shift took place very early in my life when I was just 23. Two years before With that I had discovered the world of meditation and the world of spiritual seeking. And the world of enlightenment, spiritual enlightenment, I remember how, at that time I had heard for the first time, the concept of becoming one with the universe. And he'd been so fascinating without understanding why. So then after two years of intense, tireless seeking, really, for me, it was, it was a matter of life or death. I visited India, I follow the spiritual masters, gurus. And then at the age of 23, it was in the desert, in Sinai, Egypt, I attended the silence retreat, the silent retreat with with a certain age Israeli teacher. And at a certain point, I finally had a had a direct insight into what previously I could only well imagine, or try to grasp intellectually. And that was a moment, a sincere moment, this is how I refer to it the moment of sincerity, in which I simply looked into myself, and realize that the person or self was indeed in a complete illusion. So I simply looked into the root of the eye and the root of the self, and realized that it was illusory, just as the Buddha Well, had thought 2500 years ago. And at that moment, this was my gateway to Universal Consciousness, the bliss, the unconditional love, the universality of the vision that opened before my mind's eye, well, they were so overwhelming, that I had to remain silent for an entire year afterwards. So that, that was definitely a change of perspective.


Marco Ciappelli  07:15

So as I, as I mentioned, at the beginning of the conversation, I my intent here, it will be to, to see how it is very deep and spiritual experience that you just described. And to be honest, I mentioned this to you before we started kind of listening to a course about the history of Buddhism, and I have a feeling that I'm overwhelmed, I'm happy. That's the feeling I have, because it's so complex, but also it comes down to what you said, it's, you know, being one with the universe, and a lot of different aspects. And as I mentioned, I feel like and you've wrote a book, pretty much about practicality of applying this. Why do I have this feeling that in our modern society with all the digital experience with all the interconnectivity and all of that, I feel like we people are looking more and more for this spiritual connection. Can you maybe explain us? If I am just hallucinating? Or it's something that you share with me?


Shai Tubali  08:28

Well, let's, let's first make an important distinction. Those who are a genuine seekers, total seekers, those who are interested in it in a profound mystical way of life have always been a rare few. And this is mentioned 2000 years ago in the Upanishads, in the in the ancient scriptures of India, and this is also the case right now, where there are very rare people interested in going all the way but if you're asking why it is or is it are we imagining that our modern societies increasingly more interested in in a adopting meditation adopting spiritual practices, integrating it into its daily life? Yes, that is correct. And I would say that this is because well our life due to technological reasons, has become insanely changing or changeable it it is in constant change. It is in such a constant change that I think that that for our mind, although we are following this, these changes, and doing our best to adjust to them. It is still almost impossible. to psychologically digest these kinds of periods, and I think it's just accelerating. So So I think that we're looking for, for what we can well call, silence, stillness, that which doesn't change one axis around which everything can revolve. This I think makes us psychologically center.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  10:28

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's interesting, there's so much and what you said and what I was just thinking how I, as I mentioned, unto you, prior to coming on the show is that I am in the midst of studying a little bit as Mark was listening, I'm taking a course right now a year long study class on Buddhism, and I've meditated not professionally and not as dedicated, I've incorporated it a little bit, but I do need that stillness that you talk about, but I want to get to something else. Because in some of my readings, one of the things that I've been really, that sparked a controversy in my own head. And you you kind of alluded to it, it's like, not many people go all the way, right. So this idea of, can you choose a path that has some of it, and incorporate it yet, there are some readings in certain sects of Buddhism, that also says, Being eclectic, there's a downside to that, that, you know, some might say that you lose it by incorporating it into the modern life, you take a little bit from here and a little bit from here. And some might say that you, you know, it's, it's kind of good, but not really, because you're then losing, you never get the full thing. And, and so it's kind of an interesting thing. I think there's pros and cons to both, what's your thoughts about that?


Shai Tubali  11:52

That's, that's a wonderful point. Well, I would say that, that the thing is, that we in our modern world, you know, we are appropriating everything, this is what we do, we are extracting essences and ideas and transporting them into completely different cultural environments, and so on. So So I think that what we have done with meditation and profound mystical ideas and practices is that we have removed them from context. Because Because to be a real Buddhist, you need to embrace a complete dogma, a complete way of life, you really need to, to become committed, you have certain vows certain a certain initiations, and then what we do is that which, for instance, just take mindfulness of breathing, which, which, which used to be a tremendous practice is it's a complete path to enlightenment, to, to the dissolution of the personal self, and then we simply use it to relax, to feel to feel better, to accept ourselves to feel comfortable within our bodies. So now this is I think, this is I think, it has a great advantage because we definitely need that. But if if we ask is this way to lead a, a truly committed mystical way of life that can really transform us to the core? These I would say, probably no.


Marco Ciappelli  13:31

But I'm gonna jump on the the different perspective, right? So I'm not, I don't think it's different. I'm just saying that I'm a big fan of, I'm going to use a different metaphor, exercising and lifestyle, which because meditation is part of that, I prefer to tell people, what JUST DO IT 20 minutes every day, you don't need to become the greatest of all, especially if you're a certain age, maybe you can even assume to become a professional sport. But for you, if you have to choose between an hour and a half of heavy training, versus squeezed 1520 minutes. I welcome that. So you're not going to be reached Nirvana, but you're probably going to improve your life. So and I think that in your book, actually, that's why you, you give these steps, I think 35 different meditation technique that you can apply in your everyday life. So I think in the end, if we cannot have it all, let's have a little bit, right, let's improve our life a little bit.


Shai Tubali  14:41

Oh, yes, I completely agree. And this you're pointing at the fact that Well, I created a book exactly like that. I'm offering 35 Classical meditation techniques, completely removed from their historical or cultural context. Well, I do present the cultural and historical background. But no one should be committed to these dogmas in order to be able to, to experiment with these meditations. So I think that the here, there is also a great, a great advantage, because we're finally since we're, well, we're not local, we are global, we can actually be become exposed to as many types of meditation practices as, as possible, we can we can experiment with many different practices, and See also which practices are most suited suitable for our stage of development for our interests for our that they satisfy our curiosity, and that they they succeed in triggering or provoking our, our spiritual self. So yes, I think that this is this is also a good path, because for those of us who may become enthusiastic and may want to seek further, then that's a very good starting point.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  16:21

You know, I'm just thinking that if for our listeners, if you're still listening or still watching, then you probably are familiar with meditation two point however, I thought maybe, you know, there's a lot of definitions or and conceptions around meditation shape, could you define actually, like, let's bring it down to its simplest, what, when you say meditation, what do you mean by meditation?


Shai Tubali  16:47

Okay, I would say, because I, I've really strived to find the to find one definition, because meditation is so many things. You You said before that, that it's an infinite subject, what I would say, generally speaking, meditation is every any state that that steals, the mind steals the intellect, the heart, the senses, in order to reveal deeper realities of ourselves and life. This will, I would say, the general definition that works in most cases.


Marco Ciappelli  17:31

And I'm gonna add to that with another question, which is the the appropriation of many terminology, many terms that come from the many different aspects and path of Buddhism that has been historically there, and how we wrote it in our everyday society, sometimes even maybe, not even in the right way. You know, what are your souls then today? I'm feelings and I'm chilling. But, but again, I go back to how is amazing that even if it's not seen from a Buddhist perspective, I feel like that there is an appropriation and need of embracing this thing like mindfulness, all these words that we keep hearing. So maybe a definition of that as well like mindfulness. With meditation. What Why is it so good for our everyday life?


Shai Tubali  18:34

A definition of mindfulness.


Marco Ciappelli  18:36

Yeah. Exam and mindfulness. I just picked two that


Shai Tubali  18:40

all these are very different.


Marco Ciappelli  18:43

I know let's go with both.


Shai Tubali  18:47

Well, well, mindfulness is is the broadening of our attention. This is this is how I would I would describe it because usually there are two to one grossly divided. There are two types of meditation practices. One is is all about concentration. Concentration is about focusing our mind on one tiny subject, mantra or whatever. Even even gazing, get the candle flame, that is also concentration. And then there is the other type, which is mindfulness. Now mindfulness is the opposite of focusing. It's broadening our attention, because according to mindfulness, our attention is well continuously glued to certain objects, to certain to certain focuses. You see, we have we have always a certain object of attention. And here in mindfulness, we are allowing our attention to become broader and broader to be able to include more elements of our environment, more elements of the Do it now.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  20:01

Now that's really interesting che, that brings a different perspective from me on mindfulness. When I talk about mindfulness or think about it in the way that I've spoken to people about it, my understanding one lens is that it's the awareness in the present like that, being aware. So it's both, it's like being aware of everything that's happening in the moment. So in some ways, it's both that expansiveness that you're saying, but it's also focusing on the inner in terms of what one is experiencing. So to simplify it, and especially to use it like in the modern world with technology, and using it as a practice that you recommend to just kind of, to create stillness. For me, the mindfulness is about just being aware, both of what's happening inside and being able to pause and say, Wait, what is happening with me in that moment? And it could be what's happening physiologically, what's happening, thought, what's happening, emotion, but also what is happening in the environment or in my body. So it's exactly, yeah,


Shai Tubali  21:17

exactly. But please pay attention that I think that we're talking about the same thing, because because the thing is that our we are usually habitually focused on certain a certain stream of thoughts. You see, we are so so in that sense, we are overly focused, and if we are expanding our attention to include other components, for instance, our bodily sensation, so breathing, what is happening now it is it means that we are actually expanding our awareness. Yeah, include other elements.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  21:51

You're right. I like that. I really, it's, yeah, it's a twist on that. Because in the moment while you're being, whatever you're doing in that moment, whether it's, you're focusing on something obsessing about something, or, you know, we know, especially in the United States, and really all over, we talk about the increase in anxiety. And I work with a lot of people on that. And meditation, mindfulness is really a wonderful tool, in terms of, as you said, expanding like, looking at what that anxiety is about, and pausing and really being mindful of it. But when you're doing that, you're really realizing you're expanding to that you're thinking about everything else that's happened, or the anticipatory worry. So once you figure that out, I mean, I could go on, I don't want to keep going on and it looks like you have a question. But I want to give you the mic, I know


Marco Ciappelli  22:47

I'm gonna I'm gonna let say God, jump on jump on this because I think is a great bridge to starting maybe to bring it to our everyday life and the audience may want to be hearing like okay, so I hear about all of this. It's not just all of nothing, it can be improved in many aspects of my life. And I know that this book and what you've been doing really is about this by using different techniques, given the context historically, but also teaching people to use it to get a gain immediate gain in their everyday life. So again, I keep using we're not gonna reach Nirvana probably in this life. But if you can release anxiety, if you can stay more focused, if you can apply and I want you to keep going with this, what are the advantages of practicing these techniques?


Shai Tubali  23:50

Well, the question is, is is whether we are talking about I differentiate between purposes and benefits, I think that our our medical research and psychological research on meditation usually focuses on benefits, benefits, this means that we are realizing that it helps us to increase our our capacity to cope with pain or a tip set to improve our concentration, it helps it helps us to sleep better, it lowers our blood, our our blood pressure and so on and so on. So, so, so, these this is the research and then there are purposes purposes are what meditation is for what it is designed for, what it wants us to be able to experience internally. And n is in terms of, of transformation in our own life. So the question is, what is it that we are talking about you see,


Marco Ciappelli  24:59

I'm gonna I'm Let me give you my perspective. And then Susan, and then maybe you answer to both. For me, I understand that humans, especially if they're not very dedicated to something, or they're so educated about a topic, in our society, we want everything we want to now. So I think that the starting with this is how you're going to see your problem improve, could be a good reason to, to get to it. And and as you say, if you get really into it, then you maybe you bring it to that, you know, more spiritual purpose I at least Suzanne is my way of


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  25:42

Yeah, you know, no, I think that's really interesting. I was thinking a little bit different as she was talking about the difference. And I loved the distinction between talking about the benefit of it as an distinguishing that from the purpose. And what I went to, in my mind is che, as you were talking, was recently because as I mentioned, I've been meditating on and off for for many, many years, not an expert, but I've always been somewhat, I have had practices over the years. And now I'm studying more. And as I learn all the different types of meditation, one of the things that I was interesting for me was to realize that as when I go into meditate, as part of my practice, is I could think about what is the purpose right now? Like, what and it's both for me, it's what am I doing? Like, what, what do I want to get out of it in a way, and then what's the benefit going to be? So for instance, if I'm finding myself all over the place, I might want to do a meditation that's going to help me to focus. Or if I want, if I'm having a dilemma about something, I may want to go into meditation, to kind of just ponder that and to see what comes up on it. So that's what was interesting, because I related it to my practice into both. So Sherry, you can respond to any of that or


Shai Tubali  27:07

okay. Yes, but that's beautiful, because you're pointing out that you are using meditation, according to specific and changing purposes, right. So, but but if if we if we could start from from from the very beginning, the basic thing that meditation gives us, this is how what I would say, there is something that I call the Law of attention, the law of attention, is is all about learning, that, that the greatest power, that that that exists in the universe is our attention. What does it mean? This means that we are realizing in meditation, perhaps for the first time in our life, that between us between our awareness or attention, and every thought, emotion or sensation, there is a certain gap. Now this gap, the because the thing is that we automatically become identified with thoughts, emotions and sensations. So we didn't chase


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  28:18

that piece, right, I want to hear and I think our listeners will want to hear the what you said about the gap, that just explain a little bit more


Shai Tubali  28:26

about that. Yes, there is, there is a gap in in terms of, of, of a separation or differentiation between me who is watching, observing, listening, and that which I listened to, you see, so, the thing is, that, because we have lost the sense of cap, we now think that we are our thoughts, we are our emotions, you see. So So, so, now, certain thoughts and certain emotions have become monster like and we feel that we are, we are held captive by them that we are that we are powerless to even control them. This is how we have become imprisoned by our own mind. So now, when I meditate, the first learning is that there is a certain gap, there is there is a distance, there is a split of a second, in which I am still not that thought or that emotion. And I have a choice whether to identify with it or not. And this is where my freedom lies. If I discover this gap, I'm actually perhaps for the first time in my life three


Marco Ciappelli  29:47

very, very deep. It's kind of like the selfless, like don't see yourself as we don't see ourself as yourself, pretty much we associate with things that happen around us. And so we worry about the past, we worry about the future, and we're not in the in the present. I mean, I'm trying to just break it down.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  30:09

It's so interesting, because when you talk about it as a gap, what also comes to mind is like, it is a gap. And, you know, when you talked earlier about becoming the one with everything, I often thought about that one with everything is when, and maybe it isn't the gap. But the way I saw it, you know, historically, was when we don't think or feel like, for instance, when certain people will respond to an emergency without thinking, you see somebody falling, you don't think you automatically move to do that, you become one in that moment, you know, with with that thing, you're not thinking if you see somebody, you know, got to be lounging, and you just run in to help that person, you're not thinking it's an automatic thing. But in some ways, that kind of is I don't know if it's the gap or not. But, you know, again, I can go off in my own head and think about this. But, you know, I just want to say shave. The other thing, the word that you used earlier, that really resonated with me with what meditation does in terms of settling, you know, the settling of, of the mind, the emotions. In a world where there is, I don't know, if we're more unsettled than ever before, or we just because of technology, we know, we are privy to everybody's unsettlement. So I'm not gonna say if we really, truly are, but what I do know, that technology has done for an example, and maybe you can talk to how a practice of meditation can help with this, right? For instance, you know, Marco talks a lot about technology. So the creation of the cell phone, right? So what this has created in humans, is more anxiety, because it used to be that if you didn't hear from someone for a day, you didn't worry, right? You did not have you weren't saying oh my goodness, I wonder if that person's Okay, your loved one with our phones, when we text and like you said, we expect everything automatically. And now it feeds into that you don't get an answer quick enough. And people go into little panic mode. And so how do you see meditation helping with that kind of practical thing in in the world today?


Shai Tubali  32:43

Yes, well, first of all, I think, I think I can see it, because in meditation, I begin to understand the way my mind works. I think that that's a part of being mindful, right? Because sometimes I think we, we think that meditation should only make us silent or relaxed. But actually, I perceive meditation as a way of understanding the way our mind works. So then if I if I begin to be able to understand how my anxiety forms, and how it is, how it is, it is not rooted in reality, how it is a sort of interpretation, and how again, I have a choice of whether I want to identify with it or not, you see, so I will say that this is the beginning because Because suddenly, I'm not just becoming the panic. Right? And I can notice how it is forming without roots in reality, and this is this is exactly where intelligence begins to come into being.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  33:54

And I want to add without judgment, because one of the things that we do is we judge ourselves an awful lot and to become aware, right of that judgment and kind of just observer instead of the judger. Right? Because


Shai Tubali  34:11

that's wonderful. Because you you're both aware of the anxiety and the one who judges and the and the judgment and that's one movement of thoughts. Exactly, yes.


Marco Ciappelli  34:21

And almost like the subjective become subjectivity of other people become you. Instead of being objective and detaching from other I'm thinking, social media and how we have different expectation I can go on advertising and all this but this is not that conversation, although I would love to have it. But I would like to take his last few minutes with you is to look into it because I'm curious because I've heard many stories about you know, there's meditation technique. You mentioned looking at a candle concentrating on your breathing. I heard many tribes they drumming and repeating a mantra playing an instrument, like, you know, I mean, if I play my guitar, probably kind of meditating, I may not be technically meditation. So a little introduction for our audience to what are these 35? Different? Of course, you don't have the time to explain them all. But can you give a little bit of two that are completely different one from another? And and why they both remain in the realm of meditation, even if they are so maybe different than picturing the statue of the Buddha sitting in the lotus? You know, and breeding because that's what most people think about?


Shai Tubali  35:40

Yes, well, I Well, I've in the book, I've divided the world of meditation into seven groups of purposes. So so perhaps I would, I would choose one from a particular group and another from a completely different strikingly different group. So I will start with, with the, with the group that is all about in kindling our joy of life, this is this is the group that that is that that is all about revealing and experiencing our inner joy, our unconditional joy. And here there is, for instance, a series of meditations coming from the 20th century, developed by by the spiritual teacher or show that that is all about dynamic meditations. And dynamic meditations, I think, is a very interesting set of meditations because it shows us how we can cathartically bring ourselves to a state of effortless meditation. So if, for instance, were dancing, or even crying, or laughing, Qatar, cathartically, is at the edge of our laughter at the edge of our tears, we find silence. So so so this is, this is one example, we bring the conditioning of our body, the conditioning of our mind to the edge, and that brings us to, to, to, to the to the other side of stuff of silence. So this is one, and this is how it leads us to, to silence it in a diff a completely different practices that the tongue Glenn meditation in Buddhism, Tom Glenn is, I think, one of the most radical and new and even frightening meditation techniques that that has ever been developed. And this is all about learning the capacity of our hearts, to include the suffering of the world. So in turn, Glenn, we actually begin to, to focus on the suffering of others, including suffering of those who don't like so much. And then we begin to, to breathe into our heart, their suffering, and to transform their suffering into into light and happiness. So that


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  38:14

is, I can tell you that as an empath, I studied that a little bit. And it was very difficult for me, grace that, because the it was the thought of bringing in the suffering of others, it takes so it takes a real deep understanding. And I'm not sure I haven't quite gotten that yet. But I understand the idea of it. But it is very difficult to do in terms of taking that in and transforming it out. And because I've watched a lot of people have that reaction to, you know what, I feel it too much. So I, you know, che i did not, unfortunately have the opportunity to read the book before this discussion. But I am so excited to read it. I'm really looking forward. And maybe we can even have you back again, because there's so much in there that I think could be really useful to our listeners. Just for a final question. You know, because I know that meditation, the practice, right, practicing meditation and having a regular practice has its benefits. So it's not just that you do it one time, and then you're getting that impact that day. Could you talk just a little bit to the benefits for folks of the continuous practice that may not seem direct in that day, but what the benefits are?


Shai Tubali  39:45

Yes, of course, well, that I would say that the continuty or the or the daily basis of the practice should not be taken, too rigid. The because if I believe that if we begin to practice the very same practice every day, we begin to, to get used to it, or to transform it into one into another chore, another duty. Another discipline is something that we that we add to our daily activities, thus, meditation becomes another activity. Now, since meditation is all about the art of non doing, I would say that this is this is the wrong way. That is why I think, on the one hand, we do need to understand that meditation is revealed only when we take it very seriously, that is only when we delve deeply into it with sincerity and with a certain heart commitment. On the other hand, it's perfectly fine to change your meditation practice from time to time, and to challenge yourself by experimenting with new types of practices, and also sometimes to disturb the daily routine. And to remind ourselves that meditation is not a duty.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  41:15

Well, that's a very, that's a very interesting and different perspective. And perhaps that, you know, I'm thinking about my my learnings right now, where we actually take a voluntarily of course, but you can take a week, a weekly vow to meditate and practice at whatever you want to come up with X number of times per week, but perhaps it's both perhaps it's for new people starting out to make that commitment. And then once you're in practice, and you have that, you change it up so that it doesn't become stale, or just another to do. And you're so right in that because that, especially in the modern day, it becomes one more have to do, as opposed to want to this has been great Marco, what do you think, like, even great,


Marco Ciappelli  42:03

no, I'm with you. Because I, you know, I, I've always been interested, I've never really been practicing as much as I would have liked to. And then one day again, I just, you know, maybe age two, and I'm in that place where I have decided, I want to learn more about all of this. And of course, you know, I like to learn things from an historical, cultural, sociological thing, but then I'm like, Okay, enough with the theory. Let's see if it really works for me, right? So I like this idea of experimenting with different techniques. And I like the fact that you're not so rigid into say, in order to get the results, you need to do it every day, the same. You know, it's kind of like, make it fun. And then maybe you will get more and more into that. So yeah, I'm curious, because I was reading the summary. And I'm like, Yeah, I heard about some of this technique. And I'm really looking into learn more about it from an historical sociological perspective, as well. So


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  43:10

yeah, you know, when you were talking about the tang Lin, I was also thinking and again, I apologize, I was not able to read the book yet, but I'm going to let the variation of that is the loving the general loving kindness, meditation, and I feel like have right now again, I don't know if it's so different than before we just know about it. But I think that a loving kindness meditation can benefit everyone. Just because, you know, it's loving kindness for everyone. And as you said before with the Tomlin, you you also do it to quote your enemies. And when we do loving kindness, meditations, we're also sending love and kindness to people who maybe we're not that loving towards, but I think the world can always use more loving kindness.


Marco Ciappelli  43:58

Yes, so che leave you one minute, two minutes, make a call for something that you want to share with our audience. You know, it can be about the book, it can be a, an advice, whatever you like. And then after that, we'll just say goodbye. And


Shai Tubali  44:19

well, I would I would just quote the Buddha. The Buddha said something remarkable, he said that there is there is nothing in this world, that that is a greater source of suffering than an uncultivated mind. And there is nothing in this world that is a greater source of happiness than a cultivated mind. And I think this says it all. This is what meditation is all about cultivation of our mind, in order to make it a source of source of happiness, and a source of liberation rather than a source of well safe self induced some Offering?


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  45:00

Well, we're gonna have to have you back just to talk about the meaning of cultivation. So we're not going to have time to do that. I think that was a great quote from the Buddha to end on. Thank you so much.


Shai Tubali  45:13

Thank you. Thank you.


Marco Ciappelli  45:14

Thank you very much.


Dr. Susan Birne-Stone  45:16

Thank you. Thank you, Marco. And yeah, and thanks for listeners. Viewers, thank you so much.


Marco Ciappelli  45:22

Thank you for being tune this far. If you have it. There is a podcast, the audio version, so tell your friends or your family, I think there's something for everyone to take advantage of the maybe try something new if you've never tried it, or go back into a habit that maybe, you know, like me have been postponing and doing. Stay tune with perspectives. We will be back with another episode a couple of weeks after this one. So we hope you got something from this. And Shay. Thank you very much.


Shai Tubali  45:55

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a great joy being with you. Really great. You're what a wonderful conversation.


Show intro  46:09

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